I think you nailed here, Peebo. I have only seen 3-4 two or three minute clips, but I had begun reflecting upon Mr. Murray in the same way. Obviously intelligent, but crafting his positions for rhetorical effect rather than honesty. His pretentious view that you’re not even allowed to opine on a subject unless you’ve “been there” is just a lame attempt at trying to win the match on the first tee. He supports the neocon installation of a Ukrainian government hostile to Russia by saying “Qatar spends $billions” trying to influence US policy and nobody is for “invading Qatar”. That’s just plain disingenuous. Anyway, you’ve created a well written analysis. Thanks.
I listened to the entire thing and came away feeling that Murray really believes he should be the only word on the ME conflicts. His constant references to having “been there” as a journalist made me laugh. As if he was permitted to see anything that wasn’t curated by Hamas or the IDF. And his insistence that ALL the Israelis he met wanted only peace with Hamas was laughable in itself. Really Douglas? Zero Israelis want to rid themselves of Hamas and the Palestinians? Ok, sure.
Murray acts as a propagandist for Israel. I’m not sure he’s paid but my guess is he both believes what he says and is paid. Which of course is a conflict of interest that I’m sure Murray is confident he, unlike the rest of humanity, has risen above.
He should be made to read Robert Fisks The Last Great War for Civilisation. Written by someone who was in some of the places he wrote about, but had a deep understanding of why what was happening there was happening, as opposed to Murray’s blinkered thoughts.
I think it was worth watching. Murray is discussing in bad faith, and it's cringe as, but you need to practice withstanding cringe spin-artists. If you feel frustrated you need to practice overcoming this and responding rationally to bullshit. Most discussions you have are going to have someone being intellectually dishonest like this.
It's also essential to the millions of people who revere Murray. In the comments a lot of people are incredibly disappointed in him, and haven't ever seen him come up against someone who isn't some mouth-drooling woke warrior.
Excellent summary. Can’t imagine taking so much time listening to a British neocon’s view of America. Yikes. I do think they have a rose colored view of their Middle East success. It was the British, wanting to prevent Iran nationalizing British oil operations, that pressured the US into a CIA led coup in 1953, something Truman refused, but Eisenhower ok’d. We did Briton’s dirty work, that set off a chain reaction of bad blood in the Middle East. And their elite have the gall to say it’s all us. Maybe Murray should focus more at home, with unprecedented censorship and jailing of outrage over British leader’s indifference over unimpeded Muslim rape gangs.
To be fair the US largely interjected itself into the 1953 Iranian coup in order to gain a foothold over their oil reserves and to weaken Britain's position. Which is not to say BP wasn't happy for the assist from Allen Dulles and his new CIA. Just that the US didn't need much encouragement from the Brits to intervene. And yes, the results have been, shall we say, less than ideal.
Murray should stick closer to home and stop carrying water for Israel. His early and vocal support for the Neocons,(which he now seems to want to pretend were barely ever a thing and they had little to no power) painted him into a corner that he both wants to get out of and also keep painting himself into. This places him in an incoherent and uncomfortable position which you can see throughout this entire interview.
I particularly enjoyed the part at the end where he insisted that the mere mention of the name Paul Wolfowitz is by definition antisemitic. Ouch.
Interesting. Tossing Wolfowitz under the bus. One of the top tier neocons, and by many standards, Israel first, save for his career stunting relationship. I wonder if these guys will one day say what they all think: any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. I guess that would finally pop the illusion.
I don't understand this narrative that the Palestinies are somehow equally culpable to the IDF or Israelis; it doesn't make any sense to see Hamas in Gaza as the epitome of all that is evil, but then be 'understanding' to the Israeli's who do everything they accuse Hamas of doing, but at a universal level. The Israeli's collectively punish all of Palestinian society for what Hamas does or is alleged to have done, but if Hamas lobs rockets at Israel - most of which never damage anything but the psychology of Israelis - that is literally pure evil. Israeli has destroyed nearly every school, hospital and utility in Gaza, while also flattening every building they can, and openly admit that they are starving the people there to death 'because of Hamas', but somehow the Israelis get to stand on 'understandable' moral footing as if they have no choice but to do these things, and this same moral consideration is not given to Hamas or Palestinians at all.
If the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had been armed and escaped into the surrounding country-side, many would not celebrate their likely massacring of Germans surrounding them, but people would understand it and hold Germany accountable for creating the conditions that would have made such massacres possible. Overwhelmingly Hamas targeted military or militia targets around Gaza, and many a civilian was killed by the IDF as reported by Israels own military. Yet again, the chorus keeps singing that Hamas are these uniquely evil people who do uniquely evil things that have no precedent or reason for happening, and it makes no sense at all except for those who want to agree with Israel and their ethnic cleansing campaign without having the stones to come out and say it.
It’s interesting to see someone who’s smart enough to know what a poor argument is, but not smart enough to come up with good argument for the cause he’s defending. Murray is obviously arguing in bad faith.
This is a poor summary. I watched the whole thing. Murray could have made his points better, but his points were dead on. Smith is lazy and is regurgitating other people’s opinions. Murray did his homework and saw it all for himself. Smith has a right to speak on the subject, but his opinions are worthless.
That’s just, like, your opinion man. Murray came in as the officious schoolmaster correcting his inferiors and only managed to come off as an arrogant and offensive prat.
As for the last hour or so where they engaged in actual debate about the Gaza situation what Murray, and the Israelis, don’t get is that you can’t blame an entire populace for the actions of a few. Even if that populace, at varying levels, agree with the few who commit the atrocities.
There are only so many dead babies and body parts strewn across a landscape where 92% of the buildings have been destroyed, food, water, energy are cutoff, hospitals, universities all destroyed by the IDF Air Force in “retribution” for 10/7 before Israel loses the mandate of heaven. I don’t care how “right” they think they are. There comes a point where it doesn’t matter.
The clear plan has been to make Gaza unlivable so the remaining populace has no choice but to flee. It’s a straightforward genocide executed in wrath and extreme violence and the long-exploited holocaust (the only people who ever really suffered ever) no longer shields them from their atrocities.
I’m Jewish. I was horrified and sympathetic during and after 10/7 but as the actual plan became apparent Israel lost me. In fully dehumanizing the Palestinians they have made monsters of themselves. Perhaps it’s only a variation on human nature after all the decades of back and forth violence but it was up to the Israelis, holding the power position, to do more to turn the other cheek and make the sacrifices necessary to achieve peace. Instead bad-faith actors like Netanyahu used every opportunity to exacerbate the tensions and here we are. And believe me, there are plenty of Israelis who feel the same way I do.
Douglas Murray is a Neocon (the guy who called it “the N word” during the interview even though his first book was a paean to the Neocons and why the world needs them) who never saw a war the USA or Israel shouldn’t fight. He’s deeply offensive and way out of his depth. He should stick to the problems of his home country and Europe. There he has a leg to stand on.
Ah yes. The old “temperature” based method of blaming Israel for the ongoing torture and murder of its children. I offered to engage on my page, where I have 50 short articles on most aspects of this war. You can start with Netanyahu here, but please look up the word “genocide” in a dictionary first. https://open.substack.com/pub/wasserberger/p/netanyahu-and-the-israeli-mind?r=1grqiz&utm_medium=ios
Be fair now. Nobody blamed the “entire populace” any more than we blame the half-million German civilians killed by the allies in WW2. And it ain’t “retribution” either. Hamas is still torturing hostages, launching missiles, and promising more 10/7s. No country on Earth would behave differently, except most would behave worse. My thoughts on all of this can be found here, where I’m happy to engage further. https://open.substack.com/pub/wasserberger
90% of Gaza's buildings are destroyed. All the universities, hospitals, mosques, even churches (yes those exist in Gaza too) - gone. The entire population of Gaza is being given the unspoken choice to stay and die or somehow leave and perhaps survive.
This is a genocide and it's inexcusable. Hamas wants to eliminate Israel and Jews. Israel is actually doing it. Israel had other approaches it could've taken over the last decades to reduce the temperature of the conflict. In almost every case it took the option to raise the pressure. I don't blame all the Israeli people of course. In fact, quite a significant plurality are horrified at what's been done in their name.
The sad fact is that Netanyahu spent decades empowering and encouraging the most violent and unstable elements of both sides of the conflict and here we are. He was an unctuous, bad-faith actor way back in his early career while he was UN Envoy and would go on Buckley's show Firing Line. He's only changed in that he has grown more malignant and evil. He's done the Israeli people no favors and that matters to me. Until he's gone nothing will change.
Depending on what crowd you hail from some thought Douglas Murray destroyed Smith and Rogan, I found myself feeling Murray’s arguments were purely partisan, likely to make matters worse. Another guy that seems to have lost his moral compass on the matter is Jordan Peterson. To approach the Israel / Palestine matter as though only one side holds responsibility will result in the conflict going on for another 5000 years.
Asked Grok out of curiosity how it would settle the issue. In a nutshell Grok would impose a two state solution based on the borders prior to 1967 and relocate settlers in the West Bank. It did prefix it with that it’d have to have complete authority to impose a solution that couldn’t be opposed. So even AI knows solving the conflict is impossible.
Ever listen to Johnny Cash, names like mine make dealing with derogatory people no problem. But in terms of your response I’d say if that’s the best you got you know you know you have no moral ground to stand on. And you’re obviously a bit sheltered if you can’t connect that Dag Hammarskjold would be with me on this one.
No, I’m not claiming to be him, I’m just showing how ignorant you are with your derogatory comments from behind an anonymous shield, basically you’re a loser.
Wow! I did not listen to this podcast. No listening and you're right. He is a dick! He does sound like a little condescending shit...
And here, I really enjoyed listening to his opinions and often think he's positions were like mine. But like everything, in these days, sound bites are not at all a good source to judge a person or their views...
Douglas Murray somehow managed to be the Rainbow Flag Bombers meme except Republican.
He is the final synthesis of neocons and sodomy.
Great comment!
Scrolled way too far to find this comment
I think you nailed here, Peebo. I have only seen 3-4 two or three minute clips, but I had begun reflecting upon Mr. Murray in the same way. Obviously intelligent, but crafting his positions for rhetorical effect rather than honesty. His pretentious view that you’re not even allowed to opine on a subject unless you’ve “been there” is just a lame attempt at trying to win the match on the first tee. He supports the neocon installation of a Ukrainian government hostile to Russia by saying “Qatar spends $billions” trying to influence US policy and nobody is for “invading Qatar”. That’s just plain disingenuous. Anyway, you’ve created a well written analysis. Thanks.
Thank you very much.
Thank God you have summarised it. I felt obliged to watch it for myself and I can’t stand 3 hours of Rogan let alone 3 hours of the Queen Bitch.
I listened to the entire thing and came away feeling that Murray really believes he should be the only word on the ME conflicts. His constant references to having “been there” as a journalist made me laugh. As if he was permitted to see anything that wasn’t curated by Hamas or the IDF. And his insistence that ALL the Israelis he met wanted only peace with Hamas was laughable in itself. Really Douglas? Zero Israelis want to rid themselves of Hamas and the Palestinians? Ok, sure.
Murray acts as a propagandist for Israel. I’m not sure he’s paid but my guess is he both believes what he says and is paid. Which of course is a conflict of interest that I’m sure Murray is confident he, unlike the rest of humanity, has risen above.
He’s on the Free Press payroll…so yes, he is paid to be a mouthpiece
He should be made to read Robert Fisks The Last Great War for Civilisation. Written by someone who was in some of the places he wrote about, but had a deep understanding of why what was happening there was happening, as opposed to Murray’s blinkered thoughts.
He also continued to mispronounce “Hamas” as “Hamaz.” That drove me nuts.
I think it was worth watching. Murray is discussing in bad faith, and it's cringe as, but you need to practice withstanding cringe spin-artists. If you feel frustrated you need to practice overcoming this and responding rationally to bullshit. Most discussions you have are going to have someone being intellectually dishonest like this.
It's also essential to the millions of people who revere Murray. In the comments a lot of people are incredibly disappointed in him, and haven't ever seen him come up against someone who isn't some mouth-drooling woke warrior.
From what I can tell, this Douglas Murray guy is just another pseudo-intellectual D-Bag.
Someone who "sounds" authentic, but is really just another shill.
A lot of that going around these days. 😒
This is another case where Trump is (likely inadvertently) causing a lot of good (I highly doubt that Trump even knows who this guys is).
However, by forcing people into corners, a lot is being revealed that might not have been otherwise.
But that's a good thing! These people need to be ferreted out!
Hot take. Murray’s gate keeping as a defensive posture, pedantry; reminders of a smug Brit sipping tea whilst opining about his days in the punjab.
Fun fact Peebo. Murray charges $700 for VIP meet and greet for his speaking engagements
But of course he does. If Murray has one primary quality it’s self-promotion and grifting.
That’s pretty cheap, don’t a lot of retired politicians charge in the 10s of thousands
Excellent summary. Can’t imagine taking so much time listening to a British neocon’s view of America. Yikes. I do think they have a rose colored view of their Middle East success. It was the British, wanting to prevent Iran nationalizing British oil operations, that pressured the US into a CIA led coup in 1953, something Truman refused, but Eisenhower ok’d. We did Briton’s dirty work, that set off a chain reaction of bad blood in the Middle East. And their elite have the gall to say it’s all us. Maybe Murray should focus more at home, with unprecedented censorship and jailing of outrage over British leader’s indifference over unimpeded Muslim rape gangs.
Thank you kindly.
To be fair the US largely interjected itself into the 1953 Iranian coup in order to gain a foothold over their oil reserves and to weaken Britain's position. Which is not to say BP wasn't happy for the assist from Allen Dulles and his new CIA. Just that the US didn't need much encouragement from the Brits to intervene. And yes, the results have been, shall we say, less than ideal.
Murray should stick closer to home and stop carrying water for Israel. His early and vocal support for the Neocons,(which he now seems to want to pretend were barely ever a thing and they had little to no power) painted him into a corner that he both wants to get out of and also keep painting himself into. This places him in an incoherent and uncomfortable position which you can see throughout this entire interview.
I particularly enjoyed the part at the end where he insisted that the mere mention of the name Paul Wolfowitz is by definition antisemitic. Ouch.
Interesting. Tossing Wolfowitz under the bus. One of the top tier neocons, and by many standards, Israel first, save for his career stunting relationship. I wonder if these guys will one day say what they all think: any criticism of Israel is antisemitic. I guess that would finally pop the illusion.
I don't understand this narrative that the Palestinies are somehow equally culpable to the IDF or Israelis; it doesn't make any sense to see Hamas in Gaza as the epitome of all that is evil, but then be 'understanding' to the Israeli's who do everything they accuse Hamas of doing, but at a universal level. The Israeli's collectively punish all of Palestinian society for what Hamas does or is alleged to have done, but if Hamas lobs rockets at Israel - most of which never damage anything but the psychology of Israelis - that is literally pure evil. Israeli has destroyed nearly every school, hospital and utility in Gaza, while also flattening every building they can, and openly admit that they are starving the people there to death 'because of Hamas', but somehow the Israelis get to stand on 'understandable' moral footing as if they have no choice but to do these things, and this same moral consideration is not given to Hamas or Palestinians at all.
If the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had been armed and escaped into the surrounding country-side, many would not celebrate their likely massacring of Germans surrounding them, but people would understand it and hold Germany accountable for creating the conditions that would have made such massacres possible. Overwhelmingly Hamas targeted military or militia targets around Gaza, and many a civilian was killed by the IDF as reported by Israels own military. Yet again, the chorus keeps singing that Hamas are these uniquely evil people who do uniquely evil things that have no precedent or reason for happening, and it makes no sense at all except for those who want to agree with Israel and their ethnic cleansing campaign without having the stones to come out and say it.
It’s interesting to see someone who’s smart enough to know what a poor argument is, but not smart enough to come up with good argument for the cause he’s defending. Murray is obviously arguing in bad faith.
This is a poor summary. I watched the whole thing. Murray could have made his points better, but his points were dead on. Smith is lazy and is regurgitating other people’s opinions. Murray did his homework and saw it all for himself. Smith has a right to speak on the subject, but his opinions are worthless.
That’s just, like, your opinion man. Murray came in as the officious schoolmaster correcting his inferiors and only managed to come off as an arrogant and offensive prat.
As for the last hour or so where they engaged in actual debate about the Gaza situation what Murray, and the Israelis, don’t get is that you can’t blame an entire populace for the actions of a few. Even if that populace, at varying levels, agree with the few who commit the atrocities.
There are only so many dead babies and body parts strewn across a landscape where 92% of the buildings have been destroyed, food, water, energy are cutoff, hospitals, universities all destroyed by the IDF Air Force in “retribution” for 10/7 before Israel loses the mandate of heaven. I don’t care how “right” they think they are. There comes a point where it doesn’t matter.
The clear plan has been to make Gaza unlivable so the remaining populace has no choice but to flee. It’s a straightforward genocide executed in wrath and extreme violence and the long-exploited holocaust (the only people who ever really suffered ever) no longer shields them from their atrocities.
I’m Jewish. I was horrified and sympathetic during and after 10/7 but as the actual plan became apparent Israel lost me. In fully dehumanizing the Palestinians they have made monsters of themselves. Perhaps it’s only a variation on human nature after all the decades of back and forth violence but it was up to the Israelis, holding the power position, to do more to turn the other cheek and make the sacrifices necessary to achieve peace. Instead bad-faith actors like Netanyahu used every opportunity to exacerbate the tensions and here we are. And believe me, there are plenty of Israelis who feel the same way I do.
Douglas Murray is a Neocon (the guy who called it “the N word” during the interview even though his first book was a paean to the Neocons and why the world needs them) who never saw a war the USA or Israel shouldn’t fight. He’s deeply offensive and way out of his depth. He should stick to the problems of his home country and Europe. There he has a leg to stand on.
Ah yes. The old “temperature” based method of blaming Israel for the ongoing torture and murder of its children. I offered to engage on my page, where I have 50 short articles on most aspects of this war. You can start with Netanyahu here, but please look up the word “genocide” in a dictionary first. https://open.substack.com/pub/wasserberger/p/netanyahu-and-the-israeli-mind?r=1grqiz&utm_medium=ios
Be fair now. Nobody blamed the “entire populace” any more than we blame the half-million German civilians killed by the allies in WW2. And it ain’t “retribution” either. Hamas is still torturing hostages, launching missiles, and promising more 10/7s. No country on Earth would behave differently, except most would behave worse. My thoughts on all of this can be found here, where I’m happy to engage further. https://open.substack.com/pub/wasserberger
90% of Gaza's buildings are destroyed. All the universities, hospitals, mosques, even churches (yes those exist in Gaza too) - gone. The entire population of Gaza is being given the unspoken choice to stay and die or somehow leave and perhaps survive.
This is a genocide and it's inexcusable. Hamas wants to eliminate Israel and Jews. Israel is actually doing it. Israel had other approaches it could've taken over the last decades to reduce the temperature of the conflict. In almost every case it took the option to raise the pressure. I don't blame all the Israeli people of course. In fact, quite a significant plurality are horrified at what's been done in their name.
The sad fact is that Netanyahu spent decades empowering and encouraging the most violent and unstable elements of both sides of the conflict and here we are. He was an unctuous, bad-faith actor way back in his early career while he was UN Envoy and would go on Buckley's show Firing Line. He's only changed in that he has grown more malignant and evil. He's done the Israeli people no favors and that matters to me. Until he's gone nothing will change.
We should stop having civilized debates with people who want to exterminate us
Depending on what crowd you hail from some thought Douglas Murray destroyed Smith and Rogan, I found myself feeling Murray’s arguments were purely partisan, likely to make matters worse. Another guy that seems to have lost his moral compass on the matter is Jordan Peterson. To approach the Israel / Palestine matter as though only one side holds responsibility will result in the conflict going on for another 5000 years.
Asked Grok out of curiosity how it would settle the issue. In a nutshell Grok would impose a two state solution based on the borders prior to 1967 and relocate settlers in the West Bank. It did prefix it with that it’d have to have complete authority to impose a solution that couldn’t be opposed. So even AI knows solving the conflict is impossible.
Why did your parents name you Fag?
Ever listen to Johnny Cash, names like mine make dealing with derogatory people no problem. But in terms of your response I’d say if that’s the best you got you know you know you have no moral ground to stand on. And you’re obviously a bit sheltered if you can’t connect that Dag Hammarskjold would be with me on this one.
Know the little park. And the man. You're no Hammarskjöld.
He was no Waddell - or lunatic.
No, I’m not claiming to be him, I’m just showing how ignorant you are with your derogatory comments from behind an anonymous shield, basically you’re a loser.
Wow! I did not listen to this podcast. No listening and you're right. He is a dick! He does sound like a little condescending shit...
And here, I really enjoyed listening to his opinions and often think he's positions were like mine. But like everything, in these days, sound bites are not at all a good source to judge a person or their views...